Hannah and Joey are joined by Ayo Owodunni, Management Consultant at Prime Target Consulting, for an insightful conversation on the importance of inclusive leadership and DEI initiatives. They emphasize the need for genuine actions over lip service and highlight the business benefits of diversity. Ayo underscores the value of privilege for community good and the necessity of building trust with diverse team members through personal connections. The conversation also explores emotional intelligence, empathy, and the T-GROW model for goal setting in coaching. Ayo shares practical strategies and personal anecdotes, stressing the significance of understanding and connecting with individuals in the workplace.
Intro (00:00:00) - Welcome to the Young CPA Success Show. If you're a young accounting professional, this podcast is your ultimate guide to navigating your early career. Join us as we share valuable insights, expert advice, and practical tips to help you kickstart your path to success and excel in the accounting industry. Let's embark on this exciting accounting journey together.
Joey (00:00:23) - Our guest today is someone, Hannah, that you've had a webinar with. I met him for the first time today, but really enjoyed our conversation his name is Ayo Owodunni he's a lovely gentleman from Canada who does management consulting and is a writer, is a thinker, is a city councilman, which, I mean, that's a whole different thing there but one of the things that is really important to him and really important to us is, is this idea of inclusive leadership. So, I wanted to share a stat with you. This is from a Forbes article that was written on March 8th, which happens to be International Women's Day. So, it doesn't surprise me that they were talking about this on International Women's Day.
Joey (00:01:04) - But here's the stat. So, the global market for diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives is projected to hit 15.4 billion by 2026. But even with all that investment and that is a substantial amount of investment. 65% of employees do not believe their organizations truly embrace diversity, diversity and inclusion, that's a staggering stat for me.
Hannah (00:01:28) - It is. And it is to me too. And like my like, shoot from the hip like reaction to that is it makes me wonder if it's a facade for companies to be able to say that they're investing the money into diversity, equity, inclusion, and, you know, being able to tie like a tangible number to whatever they're doing, but it's not actually permeating to the culture of their firm or as a firm of the business, whatever that may be. Yeah.
Joey (00:01:57) - And it's you know, I want to be sure I'm giving credit to the authors. Patricia Duchenne is the author of Forbes, who wrote this. And she had a great line here where she says, you know, everyone will tell you that they believe Dei is good for business.
Joey (00:02:11) - And while that's a great thing to say, the reality is that there remains a big omission from the practice of it. If you're not talking about the biases that affect your diverse teams that you're working so hard to build, then you're simply just doing the PR work and you're not really doing the important thing of building community, of building infrastructure towards being able to have these sorts of conversations that we need to be having and build the teams that we need to have that are representative of our communities, that are representative of the nation or representative of our client base all of these things matter, and you know, it's important that if we are doing the work and the investment needs to stay, we also need to be making sure that that investment is followed through with real, tangible action. Otherwise, it's just lip service at that point.
Hannah (00:03:02) - Yeah it is, and I hope you all can hear, hear our hearts whenever we say this is. And I'm just going to call this like it is outside of the fact that I'm a woman.
Hannah (00:03:11) - The two of us are not very diverse. It went away from appearance like it just is what it is. But I hope you hear us whenever we say that we are two people sitting in front of you, having a conversations to incite change in the organization that we work in, to incite change in the industry that we work in. We want to not just be lip service, because that's not what we're about. We want to have conversations that are meaningful, that are impactful, and I can guarantee you that we are walking away from these conversations, trying to implement these in our organization and our community, in the conversations that we have with people, in the connections that we make. That is our promise to you as our listeners, our promise to our coworkers, to our leadership that we are we're about it. We're all in, and we are making a commitment to make a difference.
Joey (00:04:04) - Yeah, our leadership might not, you know, it's going to be a challenge. It's a challenge for all of us.
Joey (00:04:09) - It's a challenge for leadership. It's a challenge for for those of us who are you know, I would consider myself firmly in middle management, right? Where, you know, we have some some seat at the table, but not a ton of, of room to make change. But it's, you know, when we talk with Ayo, we make the case for not just the business case for all this, but the humanitarian case for a way to be better leaders, and better coaches. And anybody in an organization can be a leader. if you've been at it at an organization two days and someone starts on your second day, guess what? You're a leader to that person because you've been here one day longer than they have. So, it can start at any level. And building those muscles, building that thought process building and it's honestly, it's kind of building upon some of the episodes that we've done in the podcast like we've made a very natural progression thinking about moving from psychological safety to like, how does that impact organizations as a whole? You know, if you start doing the work and building the infrastructure for yourselves and we and we do this at day one, we're going to be so much better at, you know, day 200, 300, 600, you know, into the years, into the future.
Joey (00:05:17) - And, you know, I think it's we're critical of our industry. Our industry has a lot of things that need to change. There's a lot of things that we want to change about it, and it's not going to start until we start having these types of conversations. So, we hope you all enjoy the show and take away some good stuff. There's some great, I guess reading examples that are in there. A couple of good nuggets that I mentioned that are going to be making my bookshelf. So, I hope there's some fun takeaways for everybody.
Hannah (00:05:46) - So, I oh, I'm so excited to have you on the show with us today. I know we did a webinar for our Business Owner webinar series, which I thought was phenomenal. It was so impactful. I love the content that we covered there. I'm a big we are here like you will hear on our podcast, we have multiple podcasts where we focus on diversity, equity, inclusion and the conversations around that in fact, one of our first episodes was an episode around psychological safety in the workplace.
Hannah (00:06:13) - And that is incredibly important to us here. And I think this podcast is very well timed for us. Even like selfishly, Joey, because we are rolling out a coaching program for our team to where some of us who have maybe have not been in coaching roles in the past are now going to be stepping into those roles and I feel like in the accounting space, like this is a very common, structure for mentoring in, within a firm. So, I'm excited to really like pick your brain about that and I hope you can, like, speak some life into our audience about how they can really foster those skills as a coach and a coach as well, because I think there's that side of it. That is also important in that relationship. So, why don't we just start with you, giving our audience a little bit of background about yourself?
Ayo (00:07:05) - Hi, everyone. It's a pleasure being here with you. My name is Ayo Owodunni. You're all accountants, so I guess or, you all love financial flows and all that.
Ayo (00:07:17) - All we're doing means money is good to have. Which is. Oh, yeah. Which is quite interesting. And Ayo means joy. So, I'm happy because I have money. Yeah, I guess that's a good way to put it, but it's a great pleasure being here a management consultant, a city councilor, a part time in the city of Kitchener, in Ontario, which is about 90 minutes outside of Toronto and I do a lot of work around inclusive leadership, psychological safety, coaching as well. So, several of those areas are things that I'm really, really passionate about just recently wrote a book called Inclusive Leadership and the goal about that book is just to help leaders, be able to think differently about this inclusivity thing. I think when people hear diversity, equity and inclusion, people run out of fear. But I don't think it's something that we should run away from. I think it is something that we can embrace. It's not different from what we're all doing beforehand. I think it just has a new name and a new tag.
Ayo (00:08:20) - It's about caring for people. It's about coaching people. It's about connecting with people, building trust with people. It's just coming together in a different way, and that's how I like to approach it. So, yeah, I'm excited. I'm looking forward to this podcast.
Joey (00:08:37) - I think it's a that's a really interesting way to think about it, because when I think of Dei, I think of structure where it's like it's a structure or a thought process to kind of help guide decision making for, I'll use myself in this regard. You know, I came from a very privileged background you know, it was two parents at home, both worked. Both. Both were accountants, oddly. You know, got to go to private high schools and elementary schools and middle schools for my whole life. Never had to worry about where food was coming from. Never had to worry about where a meal was coming from and when you grow up in that type of bubble, sometimes it's really difficult to step outside of that bubble until someone teaches you how to do that and gives you some skills and thought processes to, you know, start to address some of the things about, you know, something that I've maybe taken for granted.
Joey (00:09:35) - Things like whenever I needed a new pair of shoes, I never had to worry about it. To someone like my wife, who did not come from, from a similar background, she's like, yeah, we didn't. She's like, I started working when I was 15. I had to, you know, if I was going to get new shoes, I had to work for it. I wasn't just going to, you know, tell Mom and Dad I needed new shoes. So, I love the idea of, like, we're not really doing anything different. We're just adding some structure and thought process around it so that you can have better, you know, ways to do these types of conversations.
Ayo (00:10:06) - Absolutely. And I really appreciate that that you bring that up. Honestly, I feel when we are blessed with privilege. I love to ask people, okay, we have privilege. What can we what can we use it for? Like you can use it for good there are times when I speak to people and sometimes it seems they're embarrassed about the privilege.
Ayo (00:10:30) - And I'm like, no, don't be embarrassed. You are blessed. You're privileged with this blessing. I went to my mother owns the school that I went to. I went to a private school as well. I grew up in my mom's school. That was terrible, because you better not do anything wrong, because mama's going to hear it.
Hannah (00:10:47) - I bet you didn't get away with anything.
Ayo (00:10:49) - You didn't get away with anything because they would call her right away. But here I am, many, many decades later, using the skill sets that I learned from the school and the opportunities to be able to speak on behalf of people who might not have the same privilege as I did in that time so, I first thing I want to say to people is. Yeah, I don't see your privilege is anything to be ashamed of and embrace it. But more importantly, how do we use it to add value to other people's lives? that's one. And then also, we might all be different, our backgrounds might be different, but essentially, we all want the same thing.
Ayo (00:11:28) - We want our kids to be taken care of. We want a great future for our family. We all want to take a vacation and rest, you know, every now and then. And we want to be financially taken care of, and we want our communities to be great and to be safe. So, unfortunately, when we talk to people, sometimes we tend to focus on what differentiates us. I think we need to start challenging one another to start thinking about what brings us together. You know, what are some of those things that can bring us together? And that's when connections and trust are built, and greater conversations could happen as well. So, thank you for bringing that up, Joey. I really do appreciate it, but I do hope people are able to not see privilege as a bad thing see, it is a good thing that we can embrace, and we can use for the good of our communities.
Joey (00:12:17) - Yeah, I've never I I've tried because yes, that is a thing where sometimes you do feel a little bit guilty about it.
Joey (00:12:23) - And I think the, the thing I've tried to bring to my life is like, I can't obviously change where I came from or where I went, but what I can change is what I do tomorrow with that. So I love that that philosophy and I here's where we're going to dive into the accounting piece. And if you're okay with me doing this real-quick.
Hannah (00:12:40) - Go for it.
Joey (00:12:42) - I think accounting gets people all wrong. We talk a lot, and I'm sure you've heard this in your management consulting. I'm sure everybody's heard this at some point. People are our number one asset, right. That's something companies love to talk about. Have you ever seen a company classify people as an asset before?
Hannah (00:13:03) - It never happens.
Joey (00:13:05) - It never happens, right. We're always in expense that's on the line item. So, when you sit there and this is the number one thing that I hear when I talk about these types of initiatives, whether it's, it's investing in in Dei initiatives, whether it's investing in psychological safety issues, anything that you know, can sometimes be classified as an expense if you think about it a certain way.
Joey (00:13:27) - How do we change the narrative and change people stop processes on things like Dei. So, it's like, no, no, no, no, this is not an expense. This is an investment. This is an asset that you're building and that you're creating. And you might not see the payoff on this for ten, 15, 20 years, but you will see a payoff down the road. How do we how do we get the mindset shift on that?
Ayo (00:13:51) - I think there are a few things we can provide on one end, business cases, for example, McKinsey did a study of over a thousand companies in a dozen countries. So, it wasn't just the United States, the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia and several other countries, and they discover that companies that embrace diversity, equity, inclusion and had like cultural diversity in their leadership team profitability was around 36%, you know, and they do this study year after year just to make sure that they're not missing anything. And it wasn't a fad, you know, just a one-time thing.
Ayo (00:14:26) - So, you can check out those numbers each year. And it's really around that 30 to 40% range Boston Consulting Group also did their study and what they discovered there was 19%, higher revenue with companies that had cultural diverse management teams in comparison to those that did not. And when you start to break that down and look at the individual examples of people, you start to notice, okay, this person joined my team. They bring a completely different perspective. They're bringing a completely different lens to the conversation. They're using a completely different filter that we probably didn't think about. You know, when we were looking at, you know, making some of the decisions that we're looking to make and they're just time after time, whether it is a woman joining the leadership team, whether it is someone coming from a completely different country joining that team or someone with a completely different sexual orientation, joining that leadership, that there is just a different lens on how they look at things. But unfortunately, if we don't value it, you're not going to hear from them if you don't have that psychological safety on the team.
Ayo (00:15:44) - You're not going to hear those ideas and those thoughts from those individuals. And that could end up holding back, you from gaining those numbers at the end of the day. So, I think it's a business case, just to show there are prominent organizations that have done studies on these things, and here are some of the benefits of it. And then let's even look at individual cases and stories as well. There is a I don't know about the US, but I can use an example the CEO of TD Bank Canada, not the one in the US, in Canada his family came to Canada in the 70s. They were refugees when they came here. And now, many, many decades later. He's now the CEO of, you know, if not the top bank here in Canada. And he comes with a completely different lens when you see how the bank talks about immigrants coming in. The programs they're offering for immigrants coming in, which in turn would probably turn into mortgages, you know, from those set of individuals.
Ayo (00:16:53) - My mortgage is with that company because they were the first bank to say, hey, he's an immigrant. He might not have everything together yet. Let's help him through that process but here we are, five, six years later you know, our investments is through that bank. You know, our private home is through that bank, you know, so those types of things can happen when you're able to invest early. We need to be able to help our leaders think differently around this. I think many people are just so afraid of this. They don't see the benefit because there is so much around this. There's so much fear and confusion around this deal. I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to offend anyone. So, I'm just going to say as cordial as possible and stay far away from it as possible as well. No, we need to go beyond that, because you're losing out on 36% in potential profitability or 19% potential in terms of higher revenue. You're losing out on all of those benefits because you're not embracing some of those things.
Hannah (00:17:59) - And I think that starts with like you said that trust in that piece. And I think you maybe even mentioned this in our webinar because it's coming to mind, as I think that's where I heard it is you refer to it like, a bank account, like building up the trust with the people that you work with and maybe you're thinking like, I'm not somebody who considers themselves to be diverse. But I would bet that you have an opportunity wherever you work, whether you are a staff level accountant or your middle management to develop some relationship with somebody who is diverse, and I think that that really starts with building trust, building connection, and like you said, I think so many times that we just get paralyzed by fear of what we might say to offend somebody. So, just like you said, we keep it very cordial. We want to stay politically correct like we just create this posture that is just on guard and at all times when realistically, I think we should be going into those conversations and developing those relationships, like you said, from a place of connection, from a place of trying to find those common, common themes between us.
Hannah (00:19:11) - Are there ways that you coach the people that you work with to start doing that? Like where would somebody start with that?
Ayo (00:19:19) - There are several strategies of what you can do. First of all. How do you get to know your team? What do you currently do to get to connect with them? And I have people write some stuff down. Do you make virtual coffees? Can you do coffee with people? Can you grab lunch with people? Like you don't have to do anything complicated. We're not asking you to change the world. I'm just asking you to go grab coffee with someone. And, hey, I don't know what to say at the meeting. Oh, yeah. Blame I. Oh, you know what? There was this random guy named io, and I just read his book, or I just watched a webinar, with Hannah and Joey, and they're like, four questions or three questions that he mentions. And I would like to just, you know, it's a chance for me to get to know you better so that we can work better together.
Ayo (00:20:04) - We'd love to learn more about, you know, your story. Tell me more about life. What do you love to eat? What do you love to do for fun? Where do you like to go on vacation? If you do go on vacation, like, just put a list of 5 or 6 questions together and just ask people. And the more you do it, the easier it gets for you and the easier it will get for people as well. and more importantly, I always say you got to do the basics as well. You got to smile when you're talking to people, you know, lean in when you're having a conversation with people you know, nod your head, ask the follow up questions as well, just to show that you are interested in what they're saying. And when you do those things, it starts to build this rapport with them. When you have rapport, you have leverage. Unfortunately, what we like to do when it comes to coaching is we just want to jump in.
Ayo (00:21:03) - Ask about your mom, your dad, your dog, your sister, your brother. And then ten minutes later, okay, let's start talking about your performance. You know, let's start talking about this. No, you have not built leverage. You have not built trust, and in my opinion, that's the most important thing that you have to do first. So, spending time with people, getting to know them, understanding them a bit better. Another easy exercise you can do, if you have personality assessments or whatever that you do within your organization, that is a great starting point. I remember my wife mentioned to me her first week in the company, she had to sit down with her boss, and they had to sit down and talk about their personality styles. Hey, this is my personality side. These are my strengths. These are my weaknesses. These are your strengths. Okay, so where are potential clashes? Where do we work together? And they laughed and laughed and just talked about their weaknesses and how this person gets angry at this.
Ayo (00:21:59) - And they had a good time. And literally in one meeting, one hour long, they got to know each other a bit better and that was able to help them, later on, in their conversation. So, tough times do come in coaching. You know, awkward conversations happen during coaching tough conversations take place during coaching. But the level the trust you've built provides the leverage to help you through those tough times. So, do it up front because you're going to need it later on, as we mentioned like that bank account thing. So, those are some strategies of what you can do to build that trust and read the book. speed of trust, by I think it's, Franklin Covey. I think that's the name of the author. It's a great book that provides. What are some of the things that you can do to be able to provide that trust that you need for coaching, for connecting psychological safety, inclusive leadership.
Hannah (00:22:58) - That's one thing that has been so important to me throughout all steps of my career.
Hannah (00:23:02) - I started working when I was 15. I was I was kind of like your wife to me. Like I had to work starting at 15. If I wanted to put gas in the car that I was going to drive when I turned 16. And for all the extra fun stuff, that's what I had to do. And so, my grandmother worked at a payday cash advance. and title loan company. She was the manager of it. So, I would come and just help them file paperwork and take payments from customers. It's actually where I started to love reconciliations, because she taught me how to do the reconciliations and their month in reporting but one thing that she instilled in me was that the people that were coming in, there were, were a lot of times ashamed of the fact that they needed to come into a payday cash advance or a title loan company, and we were not going to add to that feeling for them. We were going to at least provide a source of joy, a source of connection, and at least levity, or just lighten the, the, the severity of what they felt like was their situation.
Hannah (00:24:04) - And that was so important in every single person who walked through those doors and I feel like that is something that I've taken with me for my entire career and has benefited me in some ways even more than my education, because I have been able just to develop connections and trust with coworkers and management and clients and, and all of that. So, to somebody listening to this who may be early in their career. I cannot stress enough the importance of what Ayo is telling us right now in how it can really foster the culture that you're in, really help you and like you said, Joey, like it I really think it starts to develop that emotional intelligence and helps far more sometimes than any hard, hard skill could, could really, benefit somebody?
Ayo (00:24:56) - Absolutely.
Ayo (00:24:57) - I think the higher up you go in organizations, it's not just about your technical know-how technical skills is your ability to work with people and relate to people and build empathy with people. Yes, there is your strategic thinking and the hard skills, but more importantly, the emotional intelligence, as Joey mentioned, so critical at that level, as well.
Ayo (00:25:20) - On hand.
Joey (00:25:20) - I keep thinking about what our friend Josh Miller mentioned in that, that first podcast that we recorded about how with empathy, you don't have to have physically walked the path, yourself too, to have done it. You just have to acknowledge and recognize and see someone else's path that they're walking and I'm thinking Ayo about, you know, somebody who, you know, maybe you mentioned, you know, an immigrant coming to a country for the first time and acknowledging the fact that, you know, in a lot of cases, you know, that's probably the biggest risk those individuals have taken in their life thus far. And they're in a brand-new country, and maybe they don't speak the language. They certainly probably don't know the customs. And they're just hoping to find somebody there to lend a hand just to help them get started. And that's something when I think about that, I was I was immediately transported to this is the exact opposite of the life that I lived. And it's okay that that's that that's different.
Joey (00:26:19) - As long as I'm willing to go and go to that place where I'm like, hey, you know, the way that I've always thought about things like money and resources, I'm going to have to put that in the side and, and focus on, on what this individual needs. So, I love that that idea of just, you know, one, one act of empathy can then lead to lifelong relationships. And there's a business case for it. There's a humanitarian case for it. And those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. There's a very large overlap on the Venn diagram where those two things can live. And that's something I think that sometimes I don't want to say gets lost in business, but it isn't. We don't talk about it enough. We don't talk about the intangibles of it enough because it doesn't show up on a balance sheet, but it shows up in social scores and reputation scores and future clients who want to come work with you. So, it is hugely, hugely important to invest in that early and often.
Ayo (00:27:19) - Yeah.
Ayo (00:27:21) - Thanks for sharing that. I have a story around that. I have a friend who shared with me, he had worked in an organization, I believe it was in Dallas or so and had been there for three months. First time out of his country. First time in the US worked for three months and then just walked in one day and just handed in his resignation and said he can't do this anymore and his upline supervisor asked me, I ask why, and he said, I can't find my local food here, and I am sick and tired of eating mashed potatoes and you know, the things that I didn't grow up eating and I just want to go back home. I miss home. And then, you know, the supervisor goes, oh, let me make some calls, called another person from another department who is from the same country. The person takes him out to one of their local restaurants that night, and there was just as joy and gladness.
Ayo (00:28:19) - And then they connected him to where he can buy the, you know, his regular, local food. And there was just joy and gladness in his heart. And, I mean, here we are many years later. This individual has become such a huge pillar in the community and is doing so much in the community and has started their own business, and they have staff and they're doing all these things. Yes. They're not necessarily with that organization anymore. However, this is part of the organization's success story where they can say, see what we've been able to create, you know, a pillar in our community. However, a question that comes to my mind in reference to that manager was, why did it take three months for you to ask that question? You know, why wait till the point where someone had given up and they're going to the point where they said they're done no more? You could have at some point. Hey, let's grab coffee. My treat. It's two, three, $4 or whatever.
Ayo (00:29:24) - Let's sit down and let's just have a how are you doing? How are things going? How can I better support you? You know, what are some things that we're doing that is making you frustrated? What can we do better? What can we do differently? You know, what is your plan? What do you see yourself in the next two years? How can I support you and get into those, to that area, to that goal? You know, just those little questions can make a world of difference in the life and the career of an individual. So, even going beyond the business case, like you said, Joey, it's a humanitarian thing that we can do that can make our communities better, that can add so much value to our businesses as well.
Joey (00:30:02) - Well, and to kind of full circle to one of the things you mentioned earlier too. I would imagine this obviously this individual came from a completely different country. And, and I would imagine this individual's manager was not from the same country.
Joey (00:30:17) - But there's the value in having a very diverse and, and, you know, invested group of, of supervisors is had there been somebody on that management team who had said, hey, you know, maybe it's not the easiest thing for someone to come in and, you know, I lived in Dallas for a while. Dallas is a very big place. It is huge. And yes, there are lots of opportunities to go find. You know, there's obviously some great food down there from all of the various different regions of the world that are kind of you know, congregating in Dallas in various different ways, shapes and forms, but their pockets, and you have to find them. Yeah, and it's so big sometimes you can't find them and that's the, you know, I remember when my brother moved up to, to Denver, he was missing New Mexican food. And then he found one little spot two miles away from campus that had his new Mexican food. He's like, yeah, this is what got me through that semester because I got my green chili and that's what I needed.
Joey (00:31:16) - And it's had. He not had that person who said, hey, you should go try this place. And it was an old student who was from Albuquerque who moved up there. Like, you've got to have those leaders in place who can make those connections. Otherwise, I would ask the question, what are you doing in leadership?
Hannah (00:31:34) - I think leadership should remember too, that like it's not just okay, I checked the box like I asked the questions like I tried to make the connection because I think for some people like that naturally will come out. Kind of like you were saying. I like your wife and her connecting with her later. Like that happened in, in, in a matter of an hour of having that conversation. But I think we've got to acknowledge the fact that sometimes that that might take multiple coffee dates, that might take multiple times of going to that person before they really start to like, pull back the curtain a little bit and let them in to what might be going on in their life and contributing to some of their pain.
Hannah (00:32:09) - Points to is so like, you can't just do it. You can't. It's not just one and done sometimes. Like you've got to continue to foster that relationship with people. Because you know what? If you know, in the story that you told, like that manager had gone to that person initially and didn't say anything, but maybe by the end of that three months, if they were continuing to have that conversation, they would have come to them before they even put in their notice and said, this is where I'm really struggling and I don't know what to do about it, and this is where I'm at with it. So, I think it's something that has got to be, you've got to be intentional about it as a leader over and over and over again.
Ayo (00:32:46) - Absolutely. I like to say your secret weapon is your one on ones. When you have your one on ones with your team members, most times we tend to focus on the projects that people are working on. You know, those types of things.
Ayo (00:33:00) - However, I would say the first 10% of your meeting could literally be a simple question how are you doing? How are things going? and as time goes on, it starts with good, great. It's okay. It's all right. And then becomes, hey, good. You know, I took the dog to the vet this week or. Hey, good. I spent time with the family or hey good, I did this and that and as time goes on, you're able to build on those things. Hey, you mentioned you took the vet to the dog last week. How is the dog doing? Like when you show you care, people provide people how do I say we unveil differently? I guess that would be a good way to put it. And we're all like onions with different layers to ourselves, our lives, our stories, our dreams, our goals, aspirations, those types of things. And the more you're able to connect at different levels, people share a bit more about themselves.
Ayo (00:33:52) - They share a bit more, you know? But the minute you show respect, you know, you're able to listen and maybe even follow up while this person listens. Oh, they follow up. Oh, they remember. That's when all those other things tend to open over time. You don't even have to do an hour of coffee to be able to get to this level. Sometimes it's that 10% doing your one on ones of your, hey, I know we got a lot to talk about today but how are you doing? I just want to follow up. How are things going? I know you weren't feeling well last week, or I know your daughter or your somewhere in Finland last week, or I know this was happening. How are things going in that area? And when we're able to do those types of things, you still cover your one on one. Nobody's saying you take that away, but at least you're able to connect at a deeper level, even in that quick five minutes, over a period of time as well.
Ayo (00:34:45) - So keep planting the seeds. So much can come from it.
Joey (00:34:50) - Well, I love that idea of planting seeds, too, because that's, you know, I think back to some of the conversations, Hannah, that you and I have had where, you know, a the most beneficial conversations I think we've had have not really started to be about accounting or consulting or any of the things and just sort of morphed into them over time and we start saying like, hey, do you remember that one time we had this conversation? Here's how it applies to this business case or that business case. So, there's I it's hard, right? Because we all want to be productive. We all want to be, you know, growing in our careers and doing good work and serving our clients or whatever it is we happen to do. I don't ever want anybody on my team, at least to feel like it's a waste of time if you just need someone to go talk to, you know? and that because there's, that's there's always going to be a way, in my opinion, for us to circle that back around and use it as a learning opportunity down the road.
Ayo (00:35:41) - Right.
Joey (00:35:42) - That's fantastic. Well, I have a question for you here. And this is, as someone who's getting ready. Hannah, you mentioned, like those of us who are maybe about to go into like a little bit more robust of a coaching role. I fit into that. It's one of the things that's part of an organization structure we're making. Ayo, my question for you. What do people get wrong about coaching that maybe if we had a bit different insight into it, maybe we could get it right the first time.
Ayo (00:36:10) - So, I would say, of course, the importance of connecting, providing that leverage, if for me is the foundation that is important. Number two, there are two types of coaching, and we all need to be aware of those and you need to know which hat you're putting on at what time. There is the on-the-spot coaching and what I mean by that is, you know, let's say someone is making a presentation and you felt there was something that they could have done better.
Ayo (00:36:37) - And you're able to provide that feedback immediately to them so that on-the-spot feedback for people to, to get that is an aspect of coaching. But then there is the long-term coaching as well that we tend to do. So, let's say you're working with someone over a period of six months or one year. That is the long-term coaching, and you need to know which hat you're putting on at different times because if you don't, you start to create confusion and mistrust. So, for example, you're working with me over the next six months for me to improve my public speaking skills, because if I'm moving to an, my new role requires me to stand in front of people and make a presentation on whatever my Excel or my PowerPoint presentation. I don't want to be boring and you're working with me through it. That's a six-month project. So yes, I don't get it right today you are reminded and encouraged me like this is a long-term thing we're doing over six months. Month one we're focused on this month.
Ayo (00:37:37) - We're focused on that. You're giving me that long term view of where we're looking to go, you know, and you're pushing me through. It's encouraging, providing feedback, helping me grow through that. There's a difference. When Hannah is working with someone and she's sitting in a room. And she notices how they answer a question during a presentation, and she provides hey, I noticed the way you spoke to that person was a little demeaning or derogatory. And how you do it. Perhaps you can answer the question this way. You know that's on-the-spot type feedback that you're giving that person so they can tweak it immediately as they continue through. When we miss those two, we tend to confuse people. So, suddenly you have a six-month plan and then you give them 50 things you want them to work on. After their first presentation. You have overwhelmed them. You've discouraged them. They don't ever want to make a presentation again and they feel terrible about themselves. So yes, there are 15 things they need to work on.
Ayo (00:38:36) - But you know, it's a six-month plan. So, you know what? We're going to just focus on three things for, after that presentation. Yes, I have 15, but I put the other 12 aside for now here are the three most important ones that I'd like us to work on over a period of time and then the next one, oh, here are the things that I need us to work on, you know, so that is really, really crucial and important when we're providing coaching. And I also want to just provide a simple acronym that I think can help people. And in the book, it's called the T-Grow model. I learned it when I went through my life coaching practice or certification. So, T is Topic. What topic are we focus on you know, and then G is Goal. What is our goal like what are we trying to accomplish. R is Reality. What are the realities that we're facing at this point? always what are our options? What are the options that we have.
Ayo (00:39:33) - And then W is what is our way forward. All right. So, it's called the T-Grow model. So, let's use an example. So, let's say I want to I want to develop executive presence. that's the next book that I'm actually working on because I've had several immigrants reach out and say, I want to develop executive presence. So, I'm working on that project. So, someone wants to develop executive presence and there, you know, they want to sit with Joey and say, can you work with me over a period of time so I can, yes, I'm perfect when it comes to my accounting practice and cash flow projections and all the different things that we need to do, but I want to be able to sit with leaders in the company and be able to present with confidence, with clarity, with credibility, all of that. So, Joey sits with them and says, okay, beautiful. So, our topic is developing executive presence. Our timeline is six months or one year or whatever it is. All right.
Ayo (00:40:30) - Great. What is our goal? Our goal is to be able to speak confidently, speak with clarity, speak with this. So, we identify, and we break it down to maybe those three, three things or whatever that is. What are our realities? Our reality is I'm terrible at it right now. Our reality is I'm afraid of speaking in public. Our reality is when I stand to present, I start to shake, or whatever. So, we focus on one of those three areas and then say, okay, what are our options? Okay. I want to be able to speak more confident in front of people. Great. What are our options? I can go to Toastmasters to learn. I can start watching some webinars. when? Next time I'm making a presentation, I can sit with you and develop a plan around that. And then you and I can sit afterwards, and you provide feedback to me. Okay, so we list all those things, we write them all down, and then what is our way forward? All right.
Ayo (00:41:24) - For the next one month, I'm going to go to Toastmasters and start practicing. And then our next one on one I'll give you feedback on it. And then I'm going to go to. I'm going to watch some webinars. Whose webinar are you going to watch online? I'm going to watch Hannah and Joey's webinars, so I can watch how they speak confidently in front of people and write some notes down. And I'll follow up with you. So, you list all those things now. Now you have a six-month plan because they've listed a bunch of things. You provided several options, you both brainstormed on options together, and then now you have a way forward and you can spread that over a period of time. So, you don't have to think about anything new for the next 4 or 5 months. You have a list of all the things you're going to work through, and then you just keep chugging away and working through it. And if you see any articles, you see anything during your six-month period that you think could add value to them.
Ayo (00:42:13) - Hey, here's another option for learning. Here's another option for reading. Or hey, I saw this program. You might be interested in it or something like that. So, the T-Grow Model is so phenomenal as long as you can remember it topic goal what is realistic or whether what are the realities that we're currently facing? What are your options? What are, what is our way forward? You are good to go. The foundation is built in connection with people and building trust with people. And then T-Grow is built on that. You're going to be the best coach ever, and people are going to love you for it and say you are phenomenal.
Hannah (00:42:54) - I love that so much.
Joey (00:42:56) - And Hannah, you know what my mind went to automatically when I was talking about that. That is what they do. So, the CPA exam is a very, very daunting exam. And if you try to pass all four sections at once, just like if you try to go from zero to toastmaster, you know, right there and just try to do it all at once, you're not going to succeed, right? Right.
Joey (00:43:20) - So, what they do with the CPA exam is they kind of break it into digestible chunks, and you do little sprints and efforts and each one of those things I was like, oh, this is a variation of T-Grower. It's a similar type thing where it's like we're going to say, hey, the topic for today is audit and the goal is we're going to pass the audit exam. And what are our options? Well, you can use this, this or this, but here are your three resources. You know get after it and go. And it's digestible. There are easy chunks I don't want to say there's easy because the other challenge there too is you can have the best framework in the world. You're not going to get around the actual part if you have to put the effort in. But that's, you know, I think assumed or implied in any of these things, but that has so many other practical applications beyond just, you know, coaching. It's, you know, that I was like, yeah, that's exactly how they help you study for the CPA exam.
Hannah (00:44:13) - And I was even thinking about goal setting, like even individually. Like you can use that same model for your goal setting and what you want to work on personally. So, maybe you're not in a coaching relationship with someone, but I think you probably coach yourself with that model as well in terms of what you what you want to set as goals for yourself and your, you know, start with your topic and, and then work your way backwards from there and just make it digestible in a very similar fashion, is what you're saying, Joey, from you know, CPA exam is just make it really digestible, check in with yourself, bond and accountability partner for whatever you're doing like there are so many applications for that like, I'm definitely going to apply that in my coaching relationships that I'm about to go into.
Ayo (00:44:55) - And I do want a.
Joey (00:44:56) - Good a manager like we have.
Ayo (00:44:58) - I want to give credit to the creator. His name is Miles Downey. So, it's, it was something that we had learned, and.
Ayo (00:45:05) - Sorry, I started with John Whitmore, rather. And then it was modified by Miles Downey as well. So, I want to make sure, I give proper credit to whom credit is due around that but it is such a phenomenal thing we had to learn and doing our life coaching certification, and we got to practice it over and over and over again, and they got us to the point where in any conversation, you don't have to say, hey, I'm using to grow. You can just use questions for each one. And just to get people to start thinking, I used it with a student last week and at the end of the conversation I say, well, you've answered your own questions. And they were like, it was like there was an unveiling. And they were they.
Ayo (00:45:49) - Were shocked, like.
Ayo (00:45:50) - Oh, that is true. And oh yeah, by the way, as coaches, the number one, how do I put this? The number one skill we must all develop is the power of asking the right questions.
Ayo (00:46:04) - We need to ask questions that can get people to think, because when you tell them what to do, if it goes wrong, it's your fault. But if you're able to get them to think and able to come up with ideas and then you're able to work with their ideas, suddenly it's a collaboration, a collaborative effort. So, that's something.
Hannah (00:46:25) - I feel like.
Ayo (00:46:26) - Learning.
Hannah (00:46:27) - Joey is the master at that. Like, you do that? Well, Joey, because I can think of multiple times, I've come to you and you've just started asking me questions, and then suddenly it's like the wheels start turning and I'm like, right? Yes, okay, I can take I and I can run with that. Like, I'm on the right track now, and so I'll give you props. Joey, you do that very well.
Joey (00:46:48) - Well I'm gonna, I'm gonna turn right back around and give the props back to you, though, because I think the other thing too, that's required in that and what I love about that kind of framework, Ayo is when you're doing that, if I'm telling Hannah what to do, it's my idea.
Joey (00:47:02) - Right, right. If Hannah is telling me what she's going to do, that's Hannah's idea. And it's a lot easier for Hannah to own Hannah's ideas than it is for Hannah to own Joey's ideas. And so I think about, like, I don't know if we want to call it the Jedi mind trick of coaching or the inception of coaching, but like when you and it's so rewarding to when you start to see the connections form and it's like, oh, we did this in this one. And here's how this applies to this case study. But I need to tweak it a little bit because here's where it's different. And as a coach you're just like Bravo.
Ayo (00:47:38) - And.
Joey (00:47:39) - You become the master.
Ayo (00:47:40) - Interestingly, I was watching a Tony Robbins conference once and he was doing this impromptu coaching with someone, and then he said, what do you think you could do? And the person said, "I don't know. And then he said, well, let's pretend you knew what to do. What would you do if you knew what to do? And the person replied immediately, and I was like.
Ayo (00:48:04) - Wow, what was that?
Joey (00:48:10) - Well, it's like. And so, you did know what to do. What you didn't know was whether it was going to work.
Ayo (00:48:15) - Exactly.
Joey (00:48:15) - It was going to work. That's what you're going to do. Yeah.
Ayo (00:48:18) - So, that's such a powerful I need to add that to my list of tricks, you know, like, well.
Ayo (00:48:23) - Let's just pretend you knew what to do. What would you do if you knew exactly what to do? And the person went, well, I would do this, do this, do this. But literally a minute ago they were like, I don't know what to do. It's overwhelming. I don't know what to do. And it's just the power of asking the right questions. It is beautiful, it's powerful, and I want to keep developing it. And I'm always like listening to other coaches and when they say something, don't be afraid of go, oh, that's a really good question. I'm gonna to have to borrow that, you know, for some time else we all need it because the better we can ask questions, the more clarity or the more direction, and the more you're able to help people change their thinking.
Ayo (00:49:11) - You know, at the end of the day.
Hannah (00:49:14) - I could talk to you about this for probably another five hours. Like, I love this stuff. Like, I love coaching.
Joey (00:49:21) - We need a follow up webinar. We need a live webinar for the Young CPA show. Rob is already planning it in in his mind here. He's going to it's going to make me do it live because that's, again, one of those areas for growth that I have. That's on my list of things that I'd like to tackle. So, sorry I interrupted your train of thought.
Hannah (00:49:42) - No, no, absolutely. I was going to say, like, I feel like we need multiple more conversations about this. Like, I just, I love this, I love any like this just really fosters. I feel like in order to really, like, go off the deep end on this, I think you really have to start with a growth mindset as well as a leader, as an individual. Like you've got to be willing to do the work and put in like what it takes for that.
Hannah (00:50:04) - So, I'm hoping that our listeners feel inspired if they did not prior to listening to this episode to, take the steps and do the work. So, I've so enjoyed having you on the show. So, we like, to wrap with we're going to take like a, completely like we're going to do a 180, we're going to just change the direction of the conversation a little bit. I want you to tell me something your and is, what we like to call it is obviously I know that you're a coach. You're an executive coach. You said you're a city counselor. What is your and what else do you like to do? What do you do in your free time? Ayo is a city counselor and what?
Ayo (00:50:45) - That's a great question.
Ayo (00:50:48) - I think with my city council role, I, I get to connect with the community a lot. So, what I love to do is get really connected to the community. People that don't look like me sound like me. yesterday I was at a local temple in my ward.
Ayo (00:51:04) - Had a chance to meet the leaders of the temple You know, I've never been to a temple before, so, well, let me not say that prior to that being the temple, I think two times now but it was just a very interesting opportunity to be able to do something like that. So, I love connecting with the local community. I love to learn them about what people do for fun. You know how they do things very differently from me. So that's something that I love to do. I love to read. I love to read a lot as well. It just gives me a chance to explore other people's minds. And I love to write. I love to write. I feel like I have so much to say, and I have little time to say it. So, I have to find a way to take all of whatever is going on in my crazy head and put it on paper every now and then. So, I'm learning to do that more and more, nowadays as well.
Ayo (00:52:03) - That requires discipline. So, I need to get a coach to help me through that. But I'm doing it more and more.
Joey (00:52:09) - A quick a quick follow up on that. What's on Ayo’s bookshelf right now? What are you currently reading? What are you into? Is there anything that you've read recently that's just kind of had that blow your mind moment?
Ayo (00:52:21) - I'm currently reading this book. It's called leading it's By George B cuff. The real value of a mayor and councilors, although it's written for mayors and councilors. I'm still gaining a lot from it and the quote that I mentioned about the quality of the questions that you ask actually comes from this book and what he said was, you know, what got you into your position is you rolling up your sleeves and going to work and doing stuff. But now that you're in this position, you need to build the skill of asking really, really good questions and I just copied it and brought it into coaching and all the other things that I do as well.
Ayo (00:53:05) - So, for those that are going to be coaching, you got into your position most of the time because of your talents, because of your hard work. But you can't just say to someone else, hey, just be like me and do what I did. No. How do you build those questions to be able to get there? So, this is a phenomenal book I'm trying not to rush through it, so I try to take my time to read one chapter after another, because he shares a lot of really great nuggets in it.
Hannah (00:53:32) - Love that.
Hannah (00:53:33) - Awesome. If our listeners want to connect with you outside of this podcast, what's the best way for them to do that?
Ayo (00:53:38) - Sure, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I am posting every day. So, Ayo Owodunni. I'm sure they will see the show notes as well and also, I'm on Instagram or you can visit my website ayo.com.
Joey (00:53:58) - Ayo thanks so much. This was really a pleasure and I we're really going to have to make the, the webinar happened because I know it wasn't just inside this room where we talked about how much we enjoyed your webinar with Hannah earlier.
Joey (00:54:10) - We got feedback from other folks too, so this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us.
Ayo (00:54:16) - Thank you for having me.
Ayo (00:54:18) - Thank you.
Outro (00:54:20) - If you're a Young CPA looking to develop in their careers, we're always looking for great people. Visit our website for remote work opportunities with Summit Virtual CFO, or find all our open positions at Andrews CPAs and advisors.