Productizing Services for Agency Growth

The Virtual CPA Success Show: Episode 88

[00:00:17] Jody: Hello everyone and welcome to the show. 

[00:00:22] Today we have a special guest, Ernesto Tagwerker from OmbuLab. And Ernesto's gonna be talking a lot about basically productizing a service as well as giving everyone's heads up on how the pipeline's doing and really just talking about a lot of different things that can be related to a lot of the agency owners there.

[00:00:39] Fortunately, Jamie won't be meeting or attending today, and so I got my consolation prize. Joey, one of our top CFOs is on the call as well. And Joey's gonna be sharing some experience in adding some definite color to the show. So welcome Joey and Ernesto. Welcome to the show.

[00:00:57] Ernesto: All right, great to be here. Thanks for having me. Joey, really nice to meet you. And yeah, happy to talk about productized services, pipelines and best dev.

[00:01:07] Jody: Before you get into that, tell us a little bit about your company. What you've done and how you've done it. When you started it, employees, all that kind of good stuff.

[00:01:14] Ernesto: Yeah, sure. So we're about 20 full-time employees in the company. And we have about five contractors. And I started about 10 years ago when I was just excited to build on a product and I thought, okay, maybe I can freelance and pay for the product development with my freelance billable hours.

[00:01:34] Jody: And so it's just you at the time, right? 

[00:01:38] Ernesto: Yeah, it was just me. I'm from Argentina. I was in Buenos Aires living at the time, and it was just very affordable. So I could just work developing software for startups. Charge the money and then use that money to build my own product.

[00:01:52] 10 years went by and the product was not successful. But I did create a brand, created an agency, and I think we've had [00:02:00] quite a lot of success, so I'm happy to be here. 

[00:02:02] Jody: Oh, for sure. You said you went from basically one, you, to about 20, 22 folks right now. Are they all in the United States or all across the globe, or what does your company look like?

[00:02:11] Ernesto: Yeah, we're all over. We like to say we were remote before it was even necessary because of the pandemic. About 2016 we became a fully remote company and we started hiring people all over the world. We have a few folks here in the Philadelphia area where I live with my wife and kids.

[00:02:31] But we also have folks in Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Canada and yeah, we just love being remote. It's definitely helped us grow and find really good talent all over the world. 

[00:02:43] Jody: How about cost wise? Is it really a pretty good cost benefit for that as well?

[00:02:47] Or is it just simply a talent savings? 

[00:02:50] Ernesto: Yeah. The truth is that for a while in the US it was just very hard to compete for senior engineering talent. So we do have a few folks in the US but they’re usually like mid-level junior engineers. And usually most of our senior engineers are abroad.

[00:03:07] And that's definitely helped us keep up the level of our engineering skills and have a mix of cost and be able to have a good profit based on that. 

[00:03:18] Jody: What about culture? Cuz everybody tells me when, because we've been remote since 2013 and everyone's, “how do you develop a culture if you're remote, you're not seeing everybody?”

[00:03:26] So how do you do it? What's your secret sauce on that? 

[00:03:29] Ernesto: Remote culture is hard. What do you do? We've tried many things and we really like things like know your team to have like an online water cooler. We like Donut AI that basically pairs people and they have a virtual coffee chat once a week.

[00:03:46] Before the pandemic, we had our first team retreat in the Dominican Republic and that was great. We were planning to do it once a year, but then, everything shut down. Actually this year in about 20 days, we're [00:04:00] having our second team retreat in four years. Yeah, that helps for sure.

[00:04:04] And one thing we try to do is we don't assign any developers or designers more than 30 hours a week to a client project. So that gives us some slack every week to connect, to have our all hands calls, internal calls and stuff. And to have some social activities too.

[00:04:22] We usually play remote games once every two weeks. And yeah that's worked pretty well. So it's a combination of things. 

[00:04:29] Jody: Is everybody in similar time zones or do you have people completely on opposite time zones or how does that work? 

[00:04:35] Ernesto: Yeah, for a while we stuck to the eastern time zone here in the US like one or plus two or three hours.

[00:04:42] And I wanna say like last year we hired two folks in India and those are the folks that are most remote to us and they arrange their hours to work Eastern time. But yeah, we try to follow the Eastern time zone.

[00:04:57] Jody: Yeah. And we're the same way. We have a lot of folks from the east coast to West coast.

[00:05:01] I think we have 75 employees now. And we've got contractors in India. They do the same thing. So they're working with us in our time zone for half their time. And then the other half it's in there. So it's kinda like half and half type of thing.

[00:05:13] And then Philippines and Mexico. So we're. It's mostly in the eastern time zone area but for those that are outside, they're doing the same thing, they're accommodating to us which works out pretty well. 

[00:05:26] Ernesto: Yeah definitely, makes you optimize your processes and makes sure everything is in a project management tool and everybody knows what their goals are.

[00:05:36] So it's definitely challenging to work across time zones. 

[00:05:40] Jody: So tell me about your retreat. So you've got another retreat coming up here in a couple weeks. How's that? Or what's the purpose of it? First of all, how do you define purpose and what is success? How would you define success after you're done with the retreat?

[00:05:51] Ernesto: I think one thing is we sometimes struggle to row in the same direction so it's always nice to get together [00:06:00] and say, all these goals that we have either on a personal level, professional level, we all want to do this to grow with the company and to scale the company.

[00:06:10] We are at 20. We were at six for many years, but we definitely want to get to maybe 50 in a few years and we keep working on challenging projects and stuff. But I think it's more about connecting us on a personal level. We're all remote. It's nice to get together, have fun activities, get to know each other on a personal level.

[00:06:29] Do fun stuff. And then also talk a little bit about ideas and challenges that we have as a company. 

[00:06:36] Jody: So it sounds like a lot of soft skill stuff. But the gist of it is, “hey we need to connect on a personal level. We need to hang out, grab a beer soda, coffee, whatever,” and then see how everybody ticks and kinda just kinda strengthen relationships.

[00:06:48] Cause I think what we find again, cuz we're on video all the time, right? And so I see Joey's mug there all the time and I know his facial expressions. I know his personality. I know everything about him. The only thing I don't know about him is how tall he is, right?

[00:07:00] And that's what you find out when you first meet. But then it's not awkward at all, right? I've known him forever and there's no awkwardness there. Whereas, if you weren't on video all the time, or you just did it that way, I think it'd be more awkward cuz you wouldn't know what Joey looks like.

[00:07:17] You wouldn't know his facial expression. You wouldn't know anything about him outside of just his voice. And it's hard to really develop a relationship with a voice. And so that was our purpose too. So I think he nailed it right on the head. Wait let's pivot a little bit here and talk a little bit about service offerings.

[00:07:32] Cuz I think you've done something that we've done a long time ago and it's really helped our business as well as productizing the service offering. We professed that, “hey, this is the way to go and you've done it.” Can you tell us a little bit about how you did it, the success and all that kind of stuff relating to your service?

[00:07:50] Ernesto: Yeah, for sure. I know a lot of agencies call this service type offering and it is similar. The idea of productizing a service is creating a [00:08:00] category for something that you do really well and marketing it as it is. So I wanna say about seven years ago we started working on a rails upgrade project, and this is a framework on top of the Ruby programming language.

[00:08:14] This client really needed to upgrade their dependencies and we came in and we did it for them. And then we thought why can't we do this for a lot more clients? How can we create a knowledge base, a process that we do over and over again to payoff technical debt for some of our clients.

[00:08:32] And that's how we created this very simple landing page. And we described the problem of having outdated versions of libraries in your code base and why you should upgrade. We basically shared a ton of recipes and content that if you wanted to DIY it, you could do it, but if you didn't have the time and you had the money, you could pay us to do it for you.

[00:08:55] And I feel like. Over the years this has been one of the key factors to scaling our business and defining a pipeline that's very clear. It's like you have a problem, you're looking for a solution, you have the money but you don't have the time. You don't wanna put your development team to do this.

[00:09:11] So you come to us, we do it for you, and we have a repeatable process that you can trust. And then, you can start organizing more things around it, like the marketing campaigns, paid marketing campaigns, SEO campaigns, and other stuff. I love this idea of productized services.

[00:09:28] And a couple years ago at owner camp Tom from Parallax, was in the circle and I was just explaining this idea and I could see him nodding his head and I was just like, okay. This is a guy who built like a really big agency, and he's like just listening carefully and saying, “yes, this is a great idea, and every agency should do it.”

[00:09:52] And I've been trying to share this idea with more agency owners to,to get them to use it to scale their [00:10:00] businesses. So 

[00:10:00] Jody: Correct me if I'm wrong here. So by productizing your service, you basically niched a service. So you didn't niched an industry necessarily, you niched a service and because of that service, people are coming to you because of that, right?

[00:10:13] So you're doing all the inbound, all the marketing content and putting out white pages and you name it. And people are seeing that and saying, “hey, we need to actually do this. Let's go to Ernesto and let's see if he can solve the problem. Cuz that's what he does.”

[00:10:29] He does exactly that. And sales are going really well?

[00:10:33] Ernesto: Yeah, this year is weird, right? The sales pipelines have dried up a little bit. So we definitely have verbal yeses from big companies that need to upgrade but a lot of other leads and clients that reached out at the beginning of the year have been more cautious with their budget.

[00:10:52] So it seems like they're holding onto their budget a little bit more. So yeah, I don't know what you've seen on your end. I know from the Bureau of Digital Community in Slack, it seems like the pipelines are a little slower than usual because of this whole, the recession, the tech layoffs and all that.

[00:11:11] So I'm wondering what you've seen. 

[00:11:14] Jody: Yeah Joey, you wanna hit that one? 

[00:11:16] Joey: Yeah, for sure. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the word “cautious.” That's what I've seen from a lot of my players, especially those who are in that space where they're may be filling a specific role within a company, either as flex capacity or outsourcing from a certain piece.

[00:11:32] We can't do this specific piece in house. We just need to help with this little bit over here. What we've been hearing is what you've been hearing, which is, “yeah, we do wanna work with you. Just, maybe not today.” It might be a little later. Let's revisit again in Q2, maybe revisit again in Q3. So I think there is a lot of folks just saying, “we're gonna set this hand out for a little bit and then see what comes either from fed decisions or just general consensus within the market over the next two to three months.” 

[00:11:59] Jody: Yeah. Days to [00:12:00] close. I think definitely getting stretched out for sure. I don't see people pausing projects or anything of that nature, but I think it's just the days to close are lengthening out, which again means we have to have more people in our pipeline in order to be able to combat that issue. So the more people in the pipeline could solve or could be a big solver for that problem for sure. And you're seeing that as well. You mentioned you're seeing that as well right now. 

[00:12:23] Ernesto: Yeah, we did see a spike a couple weeks ago and I thought, “okay, the slowness is over, we're back to normal.”

[00:12:31] But it did pick up for those weeks and then it's been like slow again. And we did get a couple clients. We're talking about public companies that need to upgrade their applications. They gave us a verbal yes, but we're still in the procurement phase. And it's okay, great.

[00:12:49] We're gonna start working on your project, we just need to get through that phase and sign the contract. But yeah, that's one thing that I've noticed. Most of the clients have been really big clients that already have the budget and they have the need to upgrade. 

[00:13:04] Jody: Yeah. Let's back up a little bit with the productizing your service. I'm really interested in finding out more about this, and so can you go more into detail on why you picked a certain service to productize? And then did you do testing on that or did you just say, “hey, this is what we're gonna productize, we're going all in on it,” and you kinda got lucky?

[00:13:24] Or was it, “hey we tested these three things and this is the one that people seem to like the most, and that's why we went to that direction.” 

[00:13:31] Ernesto: Yeah, I wanna say that Jerry is still out. I don't know, maybe I did get lucky with this product type service. We actually took this formula and we launched two more product type services in the past three years.

[00:13:43] One of them is for upgrading JavaScript applications and they're still pretty new. And we only had one client for that one. And the other one is design sprints. So anybody who wants to build a new product can reach out to us and get the design sprint where we spend [00:14:00] like a whole week looking into their idea and we come up with a few low-fi prototypes.

[00:14:05] So those are the two most recent ones that we created. And then there's another one for web performance optimization. And this one is actually easier to sell cuz web performance, if your application is slow you definitely wanna fix that right away. So that one we've had a ton of success with.

[00:14:22] But yeah, I think the idea of focusing on a problem is the key to us. It's upgrading your dependencies, whether your application is on JavaScript or Ruby is a problem that everybody has is a problem that maybe you don't wanna put your team to work on that because you prefer to have them work on their product roadmap and you prefer to ship features and bug fixes to your main application instead of upgrading your dependencies.

[00:14:49] But yeah, I think the key is just like nailing down the problem. And of course proving that your company is the best company to ship that solution or to deliver that solution. 

[00:15:04] Jody: That's where the marketing comes into play.

[00:15:06] You're really pushing that, “hey, this is what we do and this is why you should come to us because we are the experts in this field. 

[00:15:14] Ernesto: Yeah. And it does take time. I'll say that it's not like a magical solution that you just ship a landing page and leads come to your pipeline and it's like a magical pipeline from day one.

[00:15:26] No, there's like a ton of time spent on content marketing. We have a lead magnet, we have a newsletter that you can sign up for, and we have like about a thousand subscribers in that newsletter. We have a ton of articles that people can just find organically. And yeah it did take a few years for it to become a big success.

[00:15:47] And at the beginning, it was very slow until re started to get this SEO juice and a lot of organic traffic. 

[00:15:56] Jody: And same thing happened with us when we started virtual CFO services back in what, [00:16:00] 2004? That's when the internet was really getting going, right?

[00:16:02] It wasn't where anywhere near it was today. And we ranked right away very top of Google. We were number one. There wasn't many companies trying to provide a service with that name specific name. And it took us, geez, it took us years before that became to where people were starting to actually use that name.

[00:16:20] So we kinda got lucky with the name right? And people started using it, and then it was until we actually focused not only on virtual CFO, but we actually focused on an industry. So we not only did the product productized service that you're talking about, but also in a specific industry, which was creative agencies that we really see it started to give that hockey stick type shape to upswing there and went from picking up about four clients a year, which is something you can really scale a whole lot with to about four clients a month,

[00:16:47] And so, it was really one of those things that just really ramped up. And so highly recommend what you're saying there, and it does take time. It's not a wave your magic wand, and tomorrow you got these clients. You do have to spend a lot of time and effort and money to market.

[00:17:03] Kinda give you an example, we spend probably between about 7% of our revenue just in contact marketing. So we're spending a ton of money every single year over and over again. To get people to come to us, which is nice cuz we don't do RFPs and we don't go out and do all that kind of stuff that normal accounting firms would necessarily do.

[00:17:20] And same thing with agencies. You kinda avoid that because again, you get the want, people are coming your direction cuz they heard how great you are and all the different things that you can provide. And so the same type of thing there. Next question I've got for you revolving around that is how do you price it?

[00:17:35] We went to a fixed fee flat. Weekly subscription model base, how do you price your productized services? 

[00:17:43] Ernesto: Yeah that's a great idea and a great question. And sorry to say, to add to your idea of nicheing down. That's the key. Do you want to compete with every other CFO or every other CPA in the world, or do you wanna compete against every other CPA who's focusing on service agencies?[00:18:00]

[00:18:00] You went from hundreds or maybe thousands of people in the competition to maybe less than 10. A fewer than 10 people competing for the same niche. So that's one of the things that we were aiming for. It's do we wanna be another design and development agency or do we wanna niche down on this technical debt space in JavaScript or in Ruby?

[00:18:23] And that's one of my main drivers is I could not answer “why would I pick your agency over some other agency in the middle of nowhere that's charging half of what you're charging?” I really did not have a good answer and my productized service idea was my answer to that.

[00:18:40] We are the experts on this field. We specialize on,upgrades for rails, upgrades for JavaScript and that's why you should pay us top dollar. 

[00:18:49] Jody: Yeah, it's kinda like one of our first clients was Drupal Company, and that's all they did is Drupal. So people would come to them just because “Drupal.” That was their big thing.

[00:18:58] And they were a big agency in that regard. And same thing, they could command a price because that's what they specialized in, which is what we do is what you do. And I think it's just one of the benefits of being able to productize a service, niche it into service level, and then niche it into the vertical.

[00:19:17] Ernesto: Well done. And the pricing is pretty straightforward too. It works with the pipeline. It's like you want to upgrade, initially we have an audit. So we spent two weeks doing an audit. We charge about 30 hours per week just to put our developer to look at your code base and give you an idea of what the action plan is gonna look like.

[00:19:37] So of course we're charging for that. It's about $12,000 for the audit. Once we give you the audit, we tell you, “doing the upgrade is gonna take between three to five months. And it's gonna cost between, X and Y.” And that way, we're basically doing a lot of work that's gonna help us in the upgrade project.

[00:19:58] And we're giving you [00:20:00] like it's not quite fixed bid, but it's pretty close to a fixed bid where we are pretty confident we can ship this project in no more than five months. And then we charge fee per week. We're usually charging about $6,000 per week per engineer and it's pretty straightforward. So then they can pick whether they want to go fast or not that fast. We usually put two to four engineers to work on their projects and yeah, it's pretty straightforward, 

[00:20:28] Jody: So I love that idea. So the way you've got it set up is that you give basically the company their lane they're the only one to go into.

[00:20:35] It can be a high cost short timeframe, or it can be a low cost long timeframe. So you fit into their needs, their budget, all that kind of stuff. 

[00:20:44] Ernesto: Yeah. And then we can work with their budget and make progress either, slower or faster. 

[00:20:51] Joey: So a quick follow up here.

[00:20:52] So you've got your productized service, you've got your pricing locked down. How do you execute on that? Talk to me about your resourcing. Talk to me about a, finding your people, but also making sure they're busy enough, cross-training for different types of services. How are you handling that from a people perspective?

[00:21:10] Ernesto: Yeah, so what we do is we have a knowledge base and we have a process that's constantly evolving, so like the roadmap that I just talked about is a, that's a, there's a process for that and there are like five different phases in there. And yeah, of course, we need to get access to the source code and there are like a ton of the things that we do there are automated.

[00:21:32] So we use code and scripts to basically get a lot of the information. But yeah, we usually like to hire senior and junior engineers. And I wanna say some of the junior engineers that we hire can quickly go from junior to mid-level because we have a ton of information and we have one staff engineer that's not assigned to any client projects.

[00:21:57] So we take that very seriously. I used to be the [00:22:00] one doing all the firefighting when there was a problem with a client. And then I was like, “okay, maybe I can have a staff engineer be on the bench to help firefight for me. At the same time, he's available to pair with his engineers and make sure that we spread the knowledge not just through like documentation, but through a person that's involved and it's cross-functional and can switch quickly between Project A and project B.

[00:22:26] And then at the same time we do have a really great project managers that know, once we have the roadmap, we have the action plan, we set, “hey, we're gonna do this between three and five months,” that we actually stay on course and can ship the project on time. To sum it up, it's like a mix of process, great people, and just having enough support for the people who are working on the client projects.

[00:22:51] Joey: The support thing, I think is the big thing that people forget about. And Jody, to your credit, when you guys were really scaling Summit, some of the most important hires you made were on the support side. Can you talk about how difficult it is to say, “I'm gonna take this person that could be generating revenue and I'm gonna shift it to a support role, knowing I might not see anything from that person for 2, 3, 4 years on a payoff?”

[00:23:14] How do you go through that calculus? 

[00:23:14] Jody: Yeah, I think it's gotta be one of those things that finding good customers is really tough, right? And you're hoping to generate so much marketing efforts to generate so many clients. The one thing you don't wanna do is you don't wanna leak clients out in the backend.

[00:23:29] You don't wanna lose clients because of poor service. The idea is, “hey, what is a solid retention rate that you want to have?” And, for us, we don't wanna lose more than 6% of our client base a year. And we feel that's a fair number and that's the industry average.

[00:23:42] When you're looking at a subscription based type of a model and with that 6%, that could be because it's just not a good fit. It could be because the client is selling or merging up. There's a lot of different reasons what that 6% and the six percent's not all obviously our fault.

[00:23:58] Some of it's our fault because [00:24:00] we got 'em to the next level, right? But the idea is we want to make sure that 6%, it's not even lower than if it is, we've gotta figure out why. And that's where the service level folks come in because they're just as important to us as the business development people, the people actually closing the deals.

[00:24:17] We've gotta have it on both ends. They've gotta be working in tangent with each other to make sure. That one, we bring good clients in, but two, we retain the clients that we have. And that's the ROI, right? The ROI is eeping clients longer than what the average firm would keep a client.

[00:24:33] We keep our clients for five plus years on average, which is outstanding for a service based type company. And, Ernesto looking at what your model is, ow do you view that? That's how we view it and it's been really helpful for us.

[00:24:46] But I'm real curious on how you view that same question.

[00:24:48] Ernesto: Yeah. I think the process that we came up with is useful not just for the delivery part, but also for qualifying the customers. Sometimes, you'll get leads that they're not the right client for you.

[00:25:03] So it's like, how can you quickly say, “you're not the right client?” And of course, the easier way to say it is or let them realize that. So a lot of the things we see with the roadmap is, “oh, you're charging me $12,000 to give me a roadmap to upgrade my application?”

[00:25:22] Yeah, engineering time is expensive and you're gonna have to do that work. Either we do it or you do it. And then that gives you an idea of what the plan is gonna look like, what the timeline's gonna look like. So usually the ones that are like, “whoa, $12,000 for a roadmap is like too much money,” they're not the right fit for us. 

[00:25:39] And that saves us time. Saves my bis dev coordinator, Barbara, time. And she can focus on the leads that are the right fit for us that they see the value on doing an audit for stuff like this. So yeah, I think for every one of these product type services, it's important to have a process and to make sure you have a, [00:26:00] not a script, but you ask the right questions when you're qualifying a lead.

[00:26:04] So you don't waste your time with them jumping on three different calls, signing NDAs when they're like, “oh no, we had a budget of $5,000 for the entire project.”

[00:26:15] Jody: Yeah, qualifying a client is super important. And I guess the idea there is you wanna get to know as quickly as possible, right?

[00:26:21] And people think, no, I wanna talk 'em into yes. It's no, you wanna talk 'em into the no. And so no's gonna get you there, get you to yes quicker and no means by publishing pricing on their website that is gonna throw a lot of people out the door. They're not even gonna call.

[00:26:33] So that's a quick no. Finding out their budget that's important to go through and just going through and being as transparent as possible to clients just so that they know that, “hey here's the dollar amount for the service. Here's the service we're gonna offer, and here's our niche.”

[00:26:46] And that productized service is perfect, so they're not gonna be calling you for a tax return. You know that's not gonna happen cuz you qualified it on your website that here's what we do. We are a web design, web development. We're a product company, we are an SEO company, whatever that might be.

[00:27:01] It narrows that niche. So they're focusing right to you. Same with us. They're not gonna cost us to get their tax done either because they know that we are virtual CFO services. Now we can do taxes as part of it, but that's not the focus. And that's, so again, you're narrowing that down there.

[00:27:14] Yeah. I love it. Great discussion. This has been pretty awesome. We're gonna wrap up with a quick question there. Like we always do, and you know what Joey, I'm going to put you on the spot and I'm gonna have you ask the question. 

[00:27:29] Joey: Okay. So Ernesto here's my question for you, and we're gonna try to make this fun and personal being that you mentioned you were born in Argentina and moved to the United States, what's been your favorite place to visit outside of the United States that maybe someone who hasn't visited a lot of places should go to? 

[00:27:46] Ernesto: Oh, that's a good one. I guess it depends on your budget. So you guys are familiar with budgets.

[00:27:53] Jody: Let's say you have no budget. 

[00:27:54] Ernesto: No budget.

[00:27:57] Oh my gosh, so many. I would say [00:28:00] Thailand is one of my favorite ones because that's where I had my honeymoon. It was wonderful. It was great to be at the beach and have drinks and all that. So Thailand and for the budget conscious, I would say Mexico's great too. And we love it when whenever we can go there, we go.

[00:28:18] But yeah, those, how about you guys? I wanna know about you. 

[00:28:22] Jody: Yeah, so mine is Bora Bora which was really cool. It was fantastic. Everything was perfect about it. We had huts that were over the water and we can see sharks and stuff like that just swimming underneath the hut.

[00:28:35] It was really neat and the people were really fantastic to be around and just loved it all together. In Mexico, I have to a hundred percent agree with you. We go to Cabo probably once, twice a year, and so we just love going to Mexico, and vacationing there. We've already been to Cancun already this year, and it's just a really nice place to be.

[00:28:56] Now Joey I'm assuming yours is not flying somewhere, so where would yours be? 

[00:29:00] Joey: The flying thing hasn't always been a thing. This is a post-college thing, so in a previous life I got to spend a month in college in Italy at culinary school which that might be something you don't know about me.

[00:29:12] I make a mean pizza, man. So that's probably, I really enjoyed Cinque Terre. That was a great place to just spend a few days. The food is great, the beach is great. Get the best bottle of wine you've ever had for three euros just over there in just a corner store. I also am a big fan of Mexico.

[00:29:30] We honeymooned in Cabo really, so really enjoy Mexico and I do every so often just have to stump for New Mexico. Everyone should come visit Santa Fe at least once in their life. That's a city that's unlike any other. And the food is surprisingly good. So come to Santa Fe.

[00:29:44] Jody: There you go. All right, so this has been a pleasure. Definitely enjoyed having you on the podcast today. And learned a ton. Appreciate you being on again, Ernesto Tagwerker from OmbuLabs. Thank you very much. 

[00:29:58] Ernesto: Yeah great for having [00:30:00] me. Thank you. I appreciate it. And yeah, if anybody wants to know more about productized services you can probably follow me on Twitter or, mask it on, whatever.

[00:30:09] Jody: And what is your Twitter address there and your website? 

[00:30:13] Ernesto: Oh yeah. My Twitter is etagwerker and my website, I think the best website to find me is ombulabs.com. That's usually where I write my articles. 

[00:30:24] Jody: Sounds great. Thank you very much for being on..

[00:30:27] Ernesto: All right, thank you. 

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