Moving From EOS to Pinnacle with Tom Barrett

The Virtual CPA Success Show: Episode 70

In this episode, Jamie Nau, our host and Summit CPA's Director of Virtual CFO, and Jody Grunden, Partner at Anders CPAs + Advisors, catch up with Tom Barrett, Certified Scaling Up Coach, Certified Pinnacle Business Guide, and former Certified EOS Implementer, to discuss his transition from EOS to Pinnacle and how he’s using this new model to help businesses thrive.

Jamie Nau: Hello, everybody. Welcome to today's show. I’m very excited to bring Tom Barrett back, but this time with a little bit of a change. So last time we had Tom Barrett on, he was talking about the EOS system, and has recently made the change to Pinnacle. So, we're really excited to bring Tom back and talk about the change, so let's start there. Tom, how did you come about making this big switch?

[00:00:37] Tom Barrett: Yeah. So you know, in terms of doing what I do, helping companies grow, I've always been on the hunt for the best tools, systems, ideas, and constructs that are out there. That was part of my journey for over three years being in the EOS community, which was a phenomenal experience. I absolutely loved it.

[00:00:56] It continues to be a great system. But about a year and a half ago, they had a business model change. They went from a membership agreement with their implementers to a franchise agreement. And it just wasn't for me, that model. So, I left the EOS community, and now I'm part of Pinnacle.

[00:01:16] Jody Grunden: So that gives us a background for those that didn't see the first podcast. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what your background is, where you came from, and kind of progress all the way through EOS to Pinnacle.

[00:01:28] Tom Barrett: Rewinding the tape back about seven years, my wife Tracy and myself, we started to Navigate the Journey.

[00:01:35] So Tracy's pretty well known in much of the agency world as well. At Navigate the Journey, we help companies in three areas; one is to plan their life, so that's a process. The second we have is growing their team health, human resources and those kinds of things.

[00:01:51] The third bucket is the one that I focus on, and that's really growing and scaling their business. Over those seven years, we've used a number of [00:02:00] different processes and tools and approaches. We've worked a lot with agencies. It's just been a journey, and it continues to evolve as we'll talk about here today, but again, for us though, it's always about being open minded to what will work best and also having the experience of what doesn't work makes us continually sort of tweak our approach.

[00:02:21] So that again, we're being highly effective.

[00:02:26] Jamie Nau: If I'm an agency and listening to this podcast, I'm like, Hmm. An operating system. I've always wanted a business operating system to really help us grow. Why would I consider Pinnacle; what's the best path there?

[00:02:37] Tom Barrett: I'm gonna take a bigger step back.

[00:02:41] So I think if you're an agency considering what operating system or what whole approach to take working on the agency, here’s a really brief history. I think it’s worth us talking about because there's lots of great concepts from the main operating systems out there.

[00:02:59] So it all goes back to Michael Gerber, I think in the E Myth. There's a whole classic series of books there; he's got some very helpful thoughts, I think, that all agencies, again, thinking about operating systems, you have to discern the things that are really key from his whole methodology, especially around you as an entrepreneur, a manager, or a technician.

[00:03:18] He's also got some really good things on process and having a turnkey kind of franchise approach to your business. Then, next was a great game of business. Jack Stack took over a failing manufacturing company and turned it around financially, but really kind of pioneered open-book management and getting everybody, including people working on the shop floor, really understanding how they could actually influence profit.

[00:03:40] And of course they had a big profit-share pool and all that whole great game of business is another great one to discern what you can learn from that. Getting everybody rolling truly in the same direction. Then Verne Harish came along in the early nineties, he wrote a book called Mastering the Rockefeller Habits.

[00:03:57] And then, a few years later, he wrote Scaling Up about 10 years later, which is kind of upleveling his ideas in Rockefeller habits. In between those two books, Gina Wickman wrote Traction, where EOS comes from. More recently one of Steven Covey's sons wrote a book called The Four Disciplines of Execution and has some great nuggets on execution and probably the other one I'll mention as well.

[00:04:15] That's pretty popular out there is OKRs, right? I think OKRs are great for enterenterprise-size companies, but I think for smaller businesses, it lacks the robustness of some of these other systems.

[00:04:31] So, that's kind of a quick history. And I think everybody should be aware of at least the nuggets that are in each of those systems. So where Pinnacle comes along is, our approach is really the best of the best. We look at all those different systems. They all have something to teach us.

[00:04:48] We know where the source code is, right? There's really nothing new under the sun. These are all timeless concepts, universal principles, that work in businesses across the board. And so in Pinnacle, what we've done is we've taken this best of the best approach and created a model with very specific tools and a process that's really gonna combine the best of those systems, but also we keep adding to the Pinnacle model and, and tools.

[00:05:05] We have a concept called the Endless Toolbox, and I think we're up to like 70 or so tools now. And we just keep adding them every quarter. So, that's kind of the brief history and how Pinnacle came to be.

[00:05:27] Jody Grunden: You mentioned tools; we're not talking about hammer and nail. We’re talking about what?

[00:05:31] Tom Barrett: It's basically the exercises we run companies through. I guess “tool” because it's core values, right?

[00:05:43] Companies should have core values. So, we have tools that will help them get there or even “rocks” as well. So very tangible artifacts, things you need to figure out to run a better business. There's another pro thing about tools.

[00:06:01] In many ways, there are really mental tools, mental constructs, because one of the greatest untapped things in businesses is basically people's potential. The thinking of individuals, the creativity, the thoughts of individuals. But then, if you combine an entire team together, unleashing that creativity and potential and vision and the strategy to take the business higher.

[00:06:22] So, these tools are basically constructs for us to lead people through thinking and then discussing to land on what's the best and right answer for us.

[00:06:32] Jody Grunden: It's not a one size fits all type of thing. It's figuring out the right tool, the right way of presenting it.

[00:06:39] Tom Barrett: Yes. So that's also one of the differentiators with Pinnacle as well.

[00:06:43] Some of the other systems out there take a very rigid and very sequential approach to implementation with a business. But with Pinnacle, we basically come along and first understand where the business is; you've probably done some or maybe much of this kind of work already.

[00:06:58] So if you've got core values, we don't need to redo that. We can kind of come in where maybe you're weaker, where you have the most potential, and just sort of start there.

[00:07:12] Jamie Nau: You mentioned all those books and one of the things that we've added to our training program is, when people first start, we have them going through books and we have three of those books that you mentioned as part of our training program, plus the Pinnacle books.

[00:07:26] So, we're doing pretty good there in terms of where we're starting. But my follow-up question here is, I love when you come on and I love talking to you about some of the stories you have from doing implementations. Can you tell us, now that you're doing Pinnacle, a story from a recent implementation or a recent meeting you've had with a company that really will hit the spot with another company that might be considering you?

[00:07:44] Tom Barrett: I can probably think of a few. The best category is sort of like taking clients that I had for quite a while from one system and then converting over to Pinnacle and getting to experience everything that was really very similar, but then getting to experience what's new and extra.

The place where I've been able to go deeper on is sort of true strategy. Strategy is kind of a very squishy word, but I think it's all about being unique and valuable in the marketplace. And so that's something that a lot of my clients had just not really done deep thinking on.

[00:08:21] And so we've got two different tools for this, our constructs, right? So one is Jim Collins's flywheel. So if you've read Good to Great, that's one of his findings where, basically businesses could graphically illustrate five or six key activities that would make the business turn, spin like a flywheel, to grow and scale profitably.

[00:08:43] For clients I've had for two, three plus years, they have had some of the biggest insights they ever have by actually truly clarifying what their flywheel is. And of course, once you do that, you can then rate, how are we doing with each of these circles, these activities today?

[00:09:03] And of course, That becomes annual goals and rocks. And how do you improve the financial performance by improving various parts of that? So that's the hedge concept. Another one that I've had a lot of success with is something called the one-phrase strategy and differentiating activities.

[00:09:18] Another strategy tool. So an example or one that everybody would know about is Southwest Airlines, the most successful airline ever in all kinds of ways, including financially. And so if you boil down their strategy, how they're unique and valuable, you can boil it down to two words: wheels up.

[00:09:36] It's all about asset utilization. Flying those airplanes as much as possible in a given day and flying them more than their competitors. What are their differentiating activities, right? The differentiating activities make the one-phrase strategy come to life.

[00:09:51] So for Southwest, they fly one type of airplane flying to secondary airports. Even their boarding process, things like that. Right. So, I'll give that example to a client then it's like, all right, we gotta figure out what is our one-phrase strategy and what are our differentiating activities?

[00:10:06] Typically clients have never thought that way and never had the conversations. And then of course, when they land on their answers, again, it's kind of really eye opening, and of course you can then start to go back and go, okay, what KPIs do we need to start tracking again?

[00:10:22] Annual goals, rocks change in process, change in who we're selling to. I've had a lot of success with those two tools in part.

[00:10:32] Jody Grunden: Is that something you'd spend like hours on or days on? What would a typical engagement kind of look like?

[00:10:38] Tom Barrett: So they're really an hour or two; you can make a lot of progress in both with the flywheel. Jim Collins has this little book. It's like a 30, 40 page book. I have teams read ahead of time, and it gives them examples and it explains the concepts more.

So they kind of walk in kind of knowing it. And then I walk them through a series of questions and exercises, and then I have each person create what they think the flywheel is.

[00:11:03] And then we look at each person’s, and then we land on one together and we can typically do that in 90 minutes on average and stick the landing the first time, get it 80, 90% of the way there.

And then with the one-phrase, strategy, differentiating activities, it's kind of similar. It's kind of one of those things that teams are open and honest and people are just throwing out ideas and let the best idea win.

[00:11:26] There's only so many potential ideas, ultimately. So again, probably like 90 minutes give or take, you can get there, but it's also helpful when you've done other things, right? The other parts, the other tools that Pinnacle brings, you're gonna be able to get there faster if you've got the organizational clarity you know in others.

[00:11:49] Jamie Nau: You mentioned for the first one that they did a little bit of homework ahead of time. Is that pretty typical that there has to be a little bit of work going into it? And then the follow-up question to that is, what would you say is a key to having a successful event with you?

[00:12:01] Tom Barrett: I actually don't like assigning too much homework. It sort of depends. There’s some very specific tools, especially the flywheel, where I think it is helpful. That's probably more exceptional. What I typically like to do is just show up, have a full-day session with a client where they shut off their connection to the outside world and really do a deep dive on the business.

[00:12:18] So we just do it all in the room. And that's part of having me there as an outside facilitator and teacher. But in terms of what to have a successful engagement, I think for me, I've gotten to a place where I really will only work with a client if they're willing to commit at least one day a quarter and at least for two years.

[00:12:38] Because figuring out all these kinds of things is a process. And there's always a next level and then these different sorts of tools and constructs, they all sort of build upon each other, so it's not like you can kind of come in and like two or three and 10 days figure it all out and the client's good.

[00:13:00] I'm really at a place where it's a commitment to really get them to the place where they need to be.

[00:13:10] Jody Grunden: I like your approach a lot because we had a consultant. This was 15 years ago or so. We came into the office and were there for three days, went through a bunch of stuff with us and we were really pumped, excited.

[00:13:23] This is the greatest thing ever. And then that person left and then it was back to normal; it didn't last. It lasted maybe just a month maybe. It kind of just dwindled down to nothing.

Whereas your approach isn't like that at all. Your approach is, Hey, I'm gonna pound it in for a two or three day, but then we're gonna follow up and meet quarterly for the next two years. I think that is by far the better approach there.

[00:13:54] Tom Barrett: Kind of truth be told, and I've seen this with a lot of clients, when I first start working with them, team health is not where it needs to be. So their ability to actually get in a room and have a highly productive full day together is typically not there.

[00:14:09] They actually have to learn how to do this really different kind of thinking and discussing and making decisions together. Because they're also making, typically, bigger decisions about the business: what is our vision, our strategy, our plan, who's our core customer, all those kinds of things.

[00:14:23] And so even often the early phase is just sort of getting the team to be where it needs to be. Some of the other things, too, that I find early on is that it's really easy to set goals and rocks. Right. Anybody can do that, but it's a whole other thing to actually accomplish them. So, typically the first few quarters, the goal completion, the rock completion, is not great.

[00:14:42] Sometimes it's horrendous, and that's okay. And that's often the best thing that can happen because then, every time in a quarterly meeting, I'm always doing lessons learned, even if you hit all your rocks. Well, maybe the rocks were not ambitious enough.

[00:14:56] We should have stretched ourselves more or we didn't hit any of them so that we picked the wrong rocks. It was just how we executed on them. And so, you need to experience the best teacher and you sort of have to get into all these things to actually learn. I think we all learn best by our mistakes.

[00:15:19] Jamie Nau: You mentioned team health. I think that's really important. And that's often where I will try to bring you in, when I'm working with a client, and it just seems like they're not on the same page. So that's often where I bring you in.

[00:15:28] So I'm curious. I would say not all team health issues are fixable. So I'm curious about how often you see it where those conversations get to that point where it's hard. Jody and I are working in a meeting together and he's dead set on selling coffee and I'm like, I don't think a CPA firm should ever sell coffee and like that's something you might not ever get us on the same page on. So how do you work in those difficult situations and how often does it come to that?

[00:15:53] Tom Barrett: To quote you, some team health issues are not fixable. Jim Collins has the classic quote, right? “You’ve got to get the right people on the bus, the right people in the right seats, and the wrong people off the bus.”

[00:16:08] That of course is one of the things that, actually I do on day one with all applicants, help them figure out, ‘do we have the right people?’ ‘Who are the wrong people?’ And ‘What do we need to do?’ So you think you have to rip the bandaid off there first.

[00:16:22] All the consultants and all the books and all the workshops in the world are not going to fix wrong-people issues. I tell clients that all the time. I'm not a miracle worker. Nobody is. We might as well just put certain categories of people in that bucket, but here's the thing; most of us, most people, I would say, are a right person.

[00:16:44] But there's always a better version of us individually and definitely a better version of the team. And that's where all of the team-health tools and workshops and emphasis on it will pay dividends because one-on-one between certain people and then a leadership team or a departmental team. Ready Patrick Lei, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.

[00:17:05] Whoever's listening to this, if you've never done this with your team, buy his book; there's lots of stuff out there about how you can do it. It's all about trust, conflict, commitment, accountability, and results. Start there and you're gonna get a ton of value out of just having those discussions with your team.

[00:17:23] Jody Grunden: You ever get to a point where it's the partners that are the issues and that may be the management?

[00:17:29] Tom Barrett: Everything flows down right from the ownership. And yes, I do have to have some offline conversations with the ownership about things and because everybody else is noticing.

[00:17:46] Whatever those partner issues may be, while they may not be explicitly being talked about, people are pretty insightful. And you know, that's part of the reason to bring in somebody like me. We were kind of that outside objective set of eyes because, ultimately, I have no problem telling clients really hard things because I know they need to hear it.

[00:18:07] I've had it in a number of clients who have had partners leave and things, but that's all for the best, right? Those partners have to leave, that company had either outgrown them, or they no longer believe in the direction.

[00:18:22] So, you know, they weren't in their best place. They need to go off and do something that matches what their talents and their passion is.

[00:18:33] Jody Grunden: So, you've had clients bring you in to help you solve the problem, and then find out that that person is the problem.

[00:18:39] Tom Barrett: Yeah, our clients are always bringing me to help them run a better business. In some ways it's really about the business. Partners can come and go in any key role. Sometimes, maybe it's not; it could be like a non-owner who's a key leader in the business.

[00:19:00]. That could be the person holding it back. But you know, there's some, oftentimes, there's a lot of fear because that person, they have history; they have knowledge. If they walk out the door, there'd be a big hole, but they can often cause more damage because of the way they're treating their employees or something like that, or just the vibe they give off or that they don't believe where the owners wanna take the business. They wanna maybe keep it a certain size and be comfortable in their position.

[00:19:29] Jody Grunden: Most times, it's a hundred percent perfect in both scenarios. When a partner leaves, the partner's probably feeling like they don't belong or they're in a different zone or a different path.

[00:19:41] And I think it might be more of an excuse, ‘Hey, someone finally told me outside that what I'm feeling is correct, and I'm okay feeling that way. But, the company itself might have to miss me.’

[00:19:54] Tom Barrett: I think that's one of the things that, for your audience, agencies, kind of the different levels that they're gonna go through, there's sort of that early on in an agency where, the owners are sort of maybe the two or three or however many people initially who were around and start. Maybe one was a developer, one was a designer, one was good at business operations. It's like, all right, let's form a business and that's great, but it'll probably get you to a certain level, and then some people, they just can't keep growing with the business.

And they actually become laid on. And, also entrepreneurial businesses and other things that can happen is kind of confusing ownership with leadership, right?

[00:20:38] I'll often tell applicants this upfront; you can be fired from your W2 job; even though you're an owner that does not guarantee you W2 employment. Some owners push back, but I know that's hard to hear, but that is a true statement.

[00:20:58] If you're an owner who's really kind of laying down that card that I'm an owner, so I should stay, you know, Whatever X, Y, or Z, and everybody else is looking at you. You're the person that's holding the business back. Well, you're devaluing your ownership in the business.

[00:21:18] And again, you're, you're not flourishing or you're not letting your team flourish because you're just not willing to let go. If we were head of development, is it that you need to go be a developer and let somebody else, and then you probably could flourish there and let somebody else lead develop. Remain an owner, but don't be a leader.

[00:21:33] Jody Grunden: Yeah. I think when you came in and helped Summit, five or six years ago, the one tool that kind of relates to the most, and I think Adam would agree, was the accountability chart.

[00:21:51] Not an organizational chart, but an accountability chart. Can you kind that because it really helped us put each other in the right lanes.

[00:22:02] Tom Barrett: This is something in Pinnacle that we do on day one; we've got another kind of uplevel approach.

[00:22:09] So what I do is come in and say we have to define organization; what's our structure, the big picture. And then we drill down and create seats, roles, and responsibilities for people. But,we start with. Three big functions that every business has: get work, do work, and get paid.

[00:22:28] And so, we start saying, okay, well to get work, what are the functions that we need? Okay. Clarify that,and then go on to, do work. What are those functions that we need? And again, we say, forget about current people and current titles and all tha;t you got to like presume you all win the lottery.

[00:22:44] And if new people come into the business, you know to kind of open up their mindset. Once we identify what we need, such as, we need a marketing function separate from sales because they're combined or there are different ways you can do it depending on the kind of business.

[00:23:00] So okay, we need a marketing function. We need to build the seat then for the person that's gonna lead marketing. So we do that, and build a seat. Pinnacle’s approach for leadership seats is, we say there's a few common ones. First coach, mentor coach, mentor, and manage, right?

[00:23:18] All the people issues the leader needs. Second is, own the process. So if you're the leader of marketing, you gotta own the marketing process. And then the third is just simply the marketing goals KPIs. Right?

You own those so, no surprise there, but those are three bullet points. Again, if somebody is listening and doing an accountability chart, put those three in, and then we come up with maybe two to three more, very specific, unique, that the marketing leader is responsible for

[00:23:42] What are the outcomes that they need to deliver to the business to be successful? And then, two other things we list as well in the seats: one is just KPIs. So on a weekly or monthly basis, what one to three essential KPIs that that person has to deliver on? And then, the other one is to actually list out the meetings that they're in.

[00:24:06] That's also a very helpful thing in building out the seats. So, that was the marketing leader example; so that for all the leaders, you just start building out the seats below, right? So for the marketing team, what other seats are needed. Oftentimes, you know, that could be an outsourced resource.

[00:24:20] But even if they're using an outside marketing agency, you still need to build a seat for that vendor because they need to deliver. And then if you ever get to the point where you're gonna hire for that position and no longer use the outside resource, you'll have the seat already built and know what that looks like.

[00:24:38] So that's how we build the accountability chart or functional accountability chart. And then, of course, we gotta put people in there; that's the building of it.

[00:24:48] Jody Grunden: I think the cool thing about it is you're building the company and putting people in it, versus taking the existing people and creating a company around it. It's completely two different periods.

[00:24:58] Tom Barrett: Yeah. And you know, one thing I always say to teams is, when we’re entering into building the functional accountability chart, go back to the Gallup Q 12. It's an employee engagement survey. And the very first question of that survey is, “I know what's expected of me at work.”

[00:25:12] So that's one of the things I tell the teams, “Is that okay? The seat we're building?” Everybody in the agency should ultimately see the accountability chart and know what they're responsible for, but also what everybody else is expected to deliver.

When you build out that accountability chart really well, it helps avoid the lane violations that often happen, like two or more people kind of working on the same thing or two people being responsible, but nobody's really responsible.

[00:25:40] There's a lot of benefit. And the other thing about it, if you do the accountability chart really well, you can create your current one or maybe even the next six months, kind of have some room to grow into it. And then, you can create one, say that's two years out.

[00:25:52] If you've done division work, it's like, “Hey, we wanna be twice the size in three years or whatever, let's build that accountability chart and then see how they differ.” And that gives you a roadmap of who you need to hire, how you need to develop people internally, move them around internally.

[00:26:11] Jody Grunden: Every time you do that five-year approach, when you do that five year approach doesn't mean you gotta hire those people right now.

[00:26:16] Tom Barrett: means you can grow well. Cause Summit won't let you or your CFO won't let you, so that's right.

[00:26:24] Jamie Nau: Every time I've been part of the accountability conversation, both at Summit and with my clients, it's been super helpful, both for me as an employee to be okay, this is where I stand and what my KPIs are.

And what's important for me, what I really need to do, but also with clients, is to make sure everybody has direction; that really helps. I'm gonna have one final question here for you, Tom, and then we'll wrap it up; but you mentioned 70 tools.

[00:26:45] I imagine you haven't been able to use all of them yet. I know I have had a power washer in my garage for like six months, and I haven't touched it yet. I was pretty excited to actually use it last weekend and clean the garage out. So what is the tool you haven't used yet? That you're kind of excited to try out.

[00:26:57] Tom Barrett: Great question. Just recently one of the tools that was added is a tool called psychological safety. I think the idea is like, when I first heard it explained, I thought that sounds great. The Pinnacle guy who created it based it off two books that are out there on psychological safety.

[00:27:17] I can't wait to start using that with clients. So I'm probably gonna use it a lot in their annual session because we've done things like the five dysfunctions. So the psychological safety concept is very related to it. But it really helps leaders see, okay, am I creating a psychologically safe environment for my team so that they can all be their best and feel included, feel like they can challenge.

[00:27:42] I could try it out on you all.

[00:27:52] Jamie Nau: That would be fine. Sounds like a good one for us. Yeah. Maybe not on this call, but that'd interesting.

[00:27:58] Tom Barrett: We could do that another time.

[00:28:03] Jamie Nau: Great. Yeah. So definitely a great topic and really excited for this new direction you've gone in. I'm really excited about that, but any final thoughts? I'll start with you, Tom, and then I'll throw it over to Jody.

[00:28:12] Tom Barrett: Final thoughts just the audience in terms of business operating systems, check them all out. Be open to which one is gonna be right for you.

[00:28:22] And also, at this stage of your agency, whatever business operating system you pick now may not be the same one you need two, three years from now. And then I would just say, fully buy in whichever one you land on; fully buy into that and, and lean into the hard so that you actually get out of that system what's intended from it.

[00:28:47] Jody Grunden: Same thing; when Tom mentioned a tons of books when he first came on, I've read all those books multiple times and many, many other books multiple times, and it seems like I can get something little out of each book, but really don't buy into the entire process.

[00:29:03] Like and won't name names. Maybe I like the way that this book talks about how to run meetings and how this book talks about how to set goals. The combination of them is what makes us the way we are. And what I liked about what Tom had mentioned is that is what he does.

He brings in the best of each of those concepts and ideas and molds it into the business model that you're trying to create. And I think that's important to understand because I really truly don't believe one thing fits all when it comes to any kind of process.

[00:29:36] KPI or you name it. I think you really have to kinda look inside the business and kind of mold it to what the business is looking for and their goals they're trying to achieve. So, I love the concept, and I've been with Pinnacle now since Tom, so for six years or so.

[00:29:51] Probably seven years–a long time. And it's been a great success. And one of the biggest reasons why we've been so successful is the light that his team has shed on us and helped us really grow to where we're going and we're not done growing. We've got some really high expectations and are looking to do a five times multiple over the next five years.

[00:30:10] And so that's a pretty significant jump. And again, something that we couldn't do without Tom's help.

[00:30:17] Jamie Nau: I agree; a lot of our knowledge is a combination of what we read and what we do, right? So you, you know, you don't want to just read one book and say, okay, this is what I'm doing a hundred percent.

[00:30:25] You have to make sure you're, you're going through and applying different things, which is why we did our training program; a big part of it is based on getting knowledge from other people and experts. And, I will note the one book that isn't part of our training program that you didn't mention was Jodi's books.

[00:30:38] So in your future podcast, hopefully you can pull those out there because those are all part of our training program as well. So make sure that for the future podcast, those get pulled out too few times, not our podcast, but others. Thank you guys for joining; this has been a great episode.

[00:30:55] Tom Barrett: Appreciate you guys.Thanks. Have a good day.

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